The Rockpile Review - Not Enough in Indianapolis

[Shaw66]

I've been interested in all the discussion about CJ and what happens to his average as he gets more carries. I agree with those who say his yards per carry will go down. I think that's always the case.

But that isn't the point of giving him more carries. Here's the point: The guy is a game-breaker. That's why they drafted him. The value in a game breaker is not simply that once every 10 touches he rips off 30 yards or more. The value also is that when he's on the field the defense has to account for him. If he has 25 touches per game instead of 17 or 18, it means every couple of games he'll pop a big play, but almost as important it means that whenever he's on the field the defense is reshaped to account for the threat.

AP is a good example. AP's yards per carry probably would be higher with fewer carries. But the Vikings don't care about yards per carry. They care about having him on the field as much as they can and having the defense worry about him every play. The Vikings effectively say to their opponents "AP's getting the ball A LOT, and you'd better be ready for him, because he's gonna break some on you."

In 11 games, AP has 248 touches, rushing and receiving. CJ has 155. That's 93 touches, or 8 per game. If the defense knows CJ is getting the ball 8 more times a game, the defensive game plan changes. CJ's yards per carry goes down (because the defense is keying on him more), but that change in the defense opens up other areas to attract the defense. Plus, wouldn't you rather have the ball in CJ's hands 8 more times, and give it to Chandler, Jones, Johnson, TJ and Freddy one or two limes less? Isn't CJ more likely to get you a big play than any of the others? By the way, besides getting a little more yards per carry than AP, CJ is getting FOUR yards more per reception.

CJ is the only star running back in the league who isn't getting close to or more than 20 touches a game. AP, Foster, Marshawn, CJ (a smideon below 20), Frank Gore (about 19), LeSean McCoy. CJ gets 14 per game.

I've really changed my tune on CJ and joined those who think he's underutilized.

I said this once before. In the 50s, everyone ran their offenses with a fullback and halfback, and both got carries. The Cleveland Browns had Jim Brown at fullback and Bobby Mitchell at halfback. I don't excactly who to compare Mitchell with - after he was traded to the Redskins he was something like DeSean Jackson, a really big threat. Someone asked Paul Brown why Jim Brown got the ball so much and Mitchell so infrequently. Brown said something like "when you have a cannon, why fire a popgun?" Well, the Bills have a cannon (not Jim Brown, but a huge threat), and the rest of the offense truly is a popgun offense. CJ should get the ball more.

[squirm34]

You hit the nail on the head Shaw...Chan doesn't know how to win. He coaches to the weakness and not the strength of his team. I don't know if he even realizes he's doing it. So very frustrating to see the game start to slip away and know he doesn't have the ability or mental fortitude/football intelligence to make the right calls. He just acts like they are an inferior team to their opponent and that just sends the wrong message to his team.

[ca-deek]

It is pretty simple really. Chan LOVES to pass the ball. And as much as he tells himself that he is going to keep mixiing up the play calling BEFORE the game starts, he always reverts to his first love as the game wears on. What the Bills need is a Coach "Spy" who talks into Chan's headset through the course of the second half and reminds him every play to RUN THE BALL!!!!!

[Shaw66]

It is pretty simple really. Chan LOVES to pass the ball. And as much as he tells himself that he is going to keep mixiing up the play calling BEFORE the game starts, he always reverts to his first love as the game wears on. What the Bills need is a Coach "Spy" who talks into Chan's headset through the course of the second half and reminds him every play to RUN THE BALL!!!!!

So true! I've been in denial about that point, but the play calling at the end of the first half made that point simply undeniable. You have a good running game (that is probably MORE likely to get a big play than your passing game), it's in your interest to run the clock unless you happen to pop a big play, so why in the world are you throwing the ball from your own goal line? Why? Because he likes passing, that's why.

[othello]

Is Gailey saving him for something? Maybe next season when he has more pieces in place and the team will have a real shot a the playoffs. Trying to keep two backs happy while conservatively working out a seamless transition from one to the other doesn't make a lot of sense either as time goes on. CJ is smaller than Peterson yet proportionally they are about equal given height and weight. Peterson is rested during the week and risked on gameday, but with the risk comes reward.

No matter what logic or reasoning a person can come up with for keeping CJ's touches to something close to an acceptable minimum, it makes no sense in light of the progress and growth he can achieve as a player, or the production he might have for the team. I don't think it can be good for the general psyche of the team knowing they have this player available but under utilized, or for Spiller.

[Shaw66]

You hit the nail on the head Shaw...Chan doesn't know how to win. He coaches to the weakness and not the strength of his team. I don't know if he even realizes he's doing it. So very frustrating to see the game start to slip away and know he doesn't have the ability or mental fortitude/football intelligence to make the right calls. He just acts like they are an inferior team to their opponent and that just sends the wrong message to his team.

Coaches to the weakness of the team is an interesting point. Instead of demanding (and calling) a game that will get big chunks of yardage on some plays, he designs an offense that allows the defense to defend as though they're always in the red zone.

[othello]

It is pretty simple really. Chan LOVES to pass the ball. And as much as he tells himself that he is going to keep mixiing up the play calling BEFORE the game starts, he always reverts to his first love as the game wears on. What the Bills need is a Coach "Spy" who talks into Chan's headset through the course of the second half and reminds him every play to RUN THE BALL!!!!!

Yeah that. It's come to the point where I accept it and think nothing much of it these days. Not like an old dog who can't be taught new tricks, more like an old dog so in love with his old tricks he doesn't care to go to far from what he likes best.

[ICEMAN]

LOL.....yeah, I want to see the season ticket count next year if Tarvaris Jackson is sold to the fanbase as our next QB.

No way will that happen.

Why NOT? OBD has been successfull selling crap qb's for more than a decade. Most of this board did and some still continue to think R. Fitzpatrick is just what this team needs at qb. It's not a far reach from here to present TJ as such.

[Shaw66]

Why NOT? OBD has been successfull selling crap qb's for more than a decade. Most of this board did and some still continue to think R. Fitzpatrick is just what this team needs at qb. It's not a far reach from here to present TJ as such.

You're right, but everyone overstates this stuff about the Bills "selling" someone to the fan base. They sold Mario and they sold TO, but they never sold FItz. All they ever did was, in response to questions, say Fitz is our quarterback. And they won't "sell" Jackson, either, because Gailey is about to annouce in April or June or even mid-August that Jackson is his QB.

What they DO have to do is say that the QB job is wide open. Then they let the fans' imaginations get carried away. The only thing the Bills sell is "we know the team was bad last year, but it will be better this year," and they let you know changes are coming.

But I agree, it isn't a reach. If the Bills draft a QB in the first couple of rounds, it'll be a signal that we won't have to suffer through Fitz much longer, and the fans will get excited.

It happened with Bledsoe, with McGahee, with Losman, with Lynch, with TO and with Mario - heck, it even happened a bit with Maybin. OBD isn't the evil empire; fans, myself included, are, well, fans. That's what fans do - wait until next year and get excited again.

[mrr0622]

I've been interested in all the discussion about CJ and what happens to his average as he gets more carries. I agree with those who say his yards per carry will go down. I think that's always the case.

But that isn't the point of giving him more carries. Here's the point: The guy is a game-breaker. That's why they drafted him. The value in a game breaker is not simply that once every 10 touches he rips off 30 yards or more. The value also is that when he's on the field the defense has to account for him. If he has 25 touches per game instead of 17 or 18, it means every couple of games he'll pop a big play, but almost as important it means that whenever he's on the field the defense is reshaped to account for the threat.

AP is a good example. AP's yards per carry probably would be higher with fewer carries. But the Vikings don't care about yards per carry. They care about having him on the field as much as they can and having the defense worry about him every play. The Vikings effectively say to their opponents "AP's getting the ball A LOT, and you'd better be ready for him, because he's gonna break some on you."

In 11 games, AP has 248 touches, rushing and receiving. CJ has 155. That's 93 touches, or 8 per game. If the defense knows CJ is getting the ball 8 more times a game, the defensive game plan changes. CJ's yards per carry goes down (because the defense is keying on him more), but that change in the defense opens up other areas to attract the defense. Plus, wouldn't you rather have the ball in CJ's hands 8 more times, and give it to Chandler, Jones, Johnson, TJ and Freddy one or two limes less? Isn't CJ more likely to get you a big play than any of the others? By the way, besides getting a little more yards per carry than AP, CJ is getting FOUR yards more per reception.

CJ is the only star running back in the league who isn't getting close to or more than 20 touches a game. AP, Foster, Marshawn, CJ (a smideon below 20), Frank Gore (about 19), LeSean McCoy. CJ gets 14 per game.

I've really changed my tune on CJ and joined those who think he's underutilized.

I said this once before. In the 50s, everyone ran their offenses with a fullback and halfback, and both got carries. The Cleveland Browns had Jim Brown at fullback and Bobby Mitchell at halfback. I don't excactly who to compare Mitchell with - after he was traded to the Redskins he was something like DeSean Jackson, a really big threat. Someone asked Paul Brown why Jim Brown got the ball so much and Mitchell so infrequently. Brown said something like "when you have a cannon, why fire a popgun?" Well, the Bills have a cannon (not Jim Brown, but a huge threat), and the rest of the offense truly is a popgun offense. CJ should get the ball more.

I've never said he shouldn't be on the field more or not get more touches. It's just that CJ getting the ball more isn't going to solve our problems on offense. But now he is getting the ball in favorable situations. The way our pass game is set up it helps the run. If we were a run first team it would be worse because teams at least have to recognize Fitz can make some plays in the pass game as it is now. They have to respect it to some extent and I spreads the field and leaves a little space for Spiller.

[Shaw66]

I've never said he shouldn't be on the field more or not get more touches. It's just that CJ getting the ball more isn't going to solve our problems on offense. But now he is getting the ball in favorable situations. The way our pass game is set up it helps the run. If we were a run first team it would be worse because teams at least have to recognize Fitz can make some plays in the pass game as it is now. They have to respect it to some extent and I spreads the field and leaves a little space for Spiller.

I don't disagree with this. I agree that it doesn't fix the problems, because you can't fix this offense without a better thrower under center.

But if Spiller were getting five more touches per game, the offense would be better because (1) he's quite productive and (2) and offense that featured CJ would force the defense to change, which would create other opportunities.

I don't think Christian Ponder is all that good - he's probably worse than Fitz, but statistically he's improved this year. It isn't surprising that his improvement happened at the same time that AP reemerged as the premier ball carrier in the league. Last year the Vikes were 3-13; this season they're 6-5. LIke the Bills they can't win a lot more without a QB change, but it's clear that they're winning more this year, with AP back in the saddle.

[mrr0622]

I don't disagree with this. I agree that it doesn't fix the problems, because you can't fix this offense without a better thrower under center.

But if Spiller were getting five more touches per game, the offense would be better because (1) he's quite productive and (2) and offense that featured CJ would force the defense to change, which would create other opportunities.

I don't think Christian Ponder is all that good - he's probably worse than Fitz, but statistically he's improved this year. It isn't surprising that his improvement happened at the same time that AP reemerged as the premier ball carrier in the league. Last year the Vikes were 3-13; this season they're 6-5. LIke the Bills they can't win a lot more without a QB change, but it's clear that they're winning more this year, with AP back in the saddle.

Yea, our offense, with Fred and Spiller, is one of the best running attacks. The stats back it up. I'm all for giving Spiller the ball. But, we also gave it to him 20 times versus Miami. Our offense wasn't that good that game. Of course, while watching the game I didn't understand why he took Spiller out. But, that is also when I thought, boy it would be good if we had Freddy out there. Freddy is a very high quality back. Imagine the problems those two create for opposing teams. Spiller should be on the field regardless though, he has to be accounted for at all times. That is why I loved the pick when Buddy made it. Something is wrong with the offense, I guess. But it has more to do with a lack of talent in general. Our offense lacks talent compared to a lot of these other teams. Fitz has left a lot of plays on the field...and he does so at a much higher rate than most other QB's. We do not have the 17th most talented offense in the league, so in my view we are playing above our talent level. So, I don't buy the argument that Gailey isn't a good coordinator (we had just as much talent if not more during the Jauron years-Fitz was a backup, think about that-and those were some of the worst offenses I've ever seen in my life). He has put these players in position to execute, and they don't do it very often. If he were fired, he will be coaching somewhere as an offensive coordinator. The thing that has always bothered me though is sometimes I think he likes the idea of doing more with less talent. We need a better QB and better receivers. CJ is probably our second best receiver too. Too bad we didn't draft TY Hilton, we probably would have won last week.

[nutts252]

CJ had an OK game against a good Miami run D. For the most part I liked the rotation that Chan had with Spiller & Choice in that game. If Gailey could only figure out how to use CJ & Freddie like that, our offense might click a lot better.

At least Gailey is finally off the 2 series rotation BS. They are quite different backs and now into Gailey's 3rd season with both of them, he still hasn't "figured out" how to use them both. I recall in one of Gailey's interviews that Spiller can get quite winded. Well no **** Shirlock, he often runs 40 yards to pick up 20. There was a point in the game last Sunday where Spiller picked up like 20 yards and I said to my buddy, this is where they need to throw in Freddie. Spiller is tired, the Colts D is tired, hand the rock to Freddie for a couple to pound the Defense. But no, Gailey goes with Spiller again and he goes for no gain or whatever.

This situation would work in reverse as well. The two backs complement each other very well. AND if both are on the field at the same time, the defense has got a lot to worry about... yet Gailey cannot for the life of him figure out how to do it, or he plain refuses to do it???!

I mean Stevie and D.Jones are on the field at the same time. So are Dareus and Kyle. Gailey says it's because if one were to go down then that weeks' playbook becomes severely limited ??!!!! What ???

You mean to tell me that after mini-camps, training camp and 10 weeks into the season that the players have forgotten all of those plays with 1 back in ?? Or that those plays are no longer effective ??

I think Gailey is smart. TOO SMART. He is constantly over thinking things. Someone needs to slap a KISS sticker on his forehead and have him look in the mirror.

This is not rocket science. Make plays that involve your play-makers and put them on the field- at the same time!! After that, you can try and get cute and mix things up once you have the D on their heels, not the other way around.

[nutts252]

Also, as far as many posters said above...Gailey is becoming more and more like Jauron.

We used to go for it on 4th down in seasons past. What happened ??

4th down punt on the 34

4th down punt with the game/SEASON! on the line ???

He is coaching scared plain and simple. This is what Stevie sees and what his comments meant, I think.

Stevie wants to win, he chased down that INT. When was the last time you saw Gailey chase anything except his own tail ??

[Thurman#1]

It smacks of if you haven't got anything nice to say, say nothing. Or point to what may be the only strength he might have to warrent the position. The refrences of Jones lamenting the fact that he wished he would have given Gailey a longer stay in Dallas have dried up, too. Not much else to say about him from any source at this point.

Permit me to gently disagree.

I think Gailey will be here next year, and I think with a decent QB he would be a great deal more effective as a coach. And an RT who can athletically block, another good WR (perhaps through development or perhaps through acquisition) and at least one but possibly two LBs couldn't hurt either.

[Thurman#1]

I've been interested in all the discussion about CJ and what happens to his average as he gets more carries. I agree with those who say his yards per carry will go down. I think that's always the case.

But that isn't the point of giving him more carries. Here's the point: The guy is a game-breaker. That's why they drafted him. The value in a game breaker is not simply that once every 10 touches he rips off 30 yards or more. The value also is that when he's on the field the defense has to account for him. If he has 25 touches per game instead of 17 or 18, it means every couple of games he'll pop a big play, but almost as important it means that whenever he's on the field the defense is reshaped to account for the threat.

AP is a good example. AP's yards per carry probably would be higher with fewer carries. But the Vikings don't care about yards per carry. They care about having him on the field as much as they can and having the defense worry about him every play. The Vikings effectively say to their opponents "AP's getting the ball A LOT, and you'd better be ready for him, because he's gonna break some on you."

In 11 games, AP has 248 touches, rushing and receiving. CJ has 155. That's 93 touches, or 8 per game. If the defense knows CJ is getting the ball 8 more times a game, the defensive game plan changes. CJ's yards per carry goes down (because the defense is keying on him more), but that change in the defense opens up other areas to attract the defense. Plus, wouldn't you rather have the ball in CJ's hands 8 more times, and give it to Chandler, Jones, Johnson, TJ and Freddy one or two limes less? Isn't CJ more likely to get you a big play than any of the others? By the way, besides getting a little more yards per carry than AP, CJ is getting FOUR yards more per reception.

CJ is the only star running back in the league who isn't getting close to or more than 20 touches a game. AP, Foster, Marshawn, CJ (a smideon below 20), Frank Gore (about 19), LeSean McCoy. CJ gets 14 per game.

I've really changed my tune on CJ and joined those who think he's underutilized.

I said this once before. In the 50s, everyone ran their offenses with a fullback and halfback, and both got carries. The Cleveland Browns had Jim Brown at fullback and Bobby Mitchell at halfback. I don't excactly who to compare Mitchell with - after he was traded to the Redskins he was something like DeSean Jackson, a really big threat. Someone asked Paul Brown why Jim Brown got the ball so much and Mitchell so infrequently. Brown said something like "when you have a cannon, why fire a popgun?" Well, the Bills have a cannon (not Jim Brown, but a huge threat), and the rest of the offense truly is a popgun offense. CJ should get the ball more.

Get the ball more? Yeah. But how much more?

Chomparing him to AP misses a vital point, AP is a freaking tank compared to Spiller. How many 200 pound RBs get 20 touches a game? There's a reason for that.

[akcash]

Good post shaww. I. Think we either need to cut out losses with fitz next year or restructure his contract majorly. I'm thinking we should just cut him and take a qb betweeing rounds 1-3... and have him compete with jackson. That taji. Boyd is intriguing to me...

[Denverbill]

Get the ball more? Yeah. But how much more?

Chomparing him to AP misses a vital point, AP is a freaking tank compared to Spiller. How many 200 pound RBs get 20 touches a game? There's a reason for that.

AP in college and the NFL has had some serious injury concerns. I don't think his comparison is off at all considering that fact.

[Shaw66]

Get the ball more? Yeah. But how much more?

Chomparing him to AP misses a vital point, AP is a freaking tank compared to Spiller. How many 200 pound RBs get 20 touches a game? There's a reason for that.

Fair enough, but I doubt the Bills have gotten to whatever is CJ's reasonable limit. He's the Bills best weapon, and he is not on the field as much as he reasonably could be.