I hope fans realize we are entering year one of another full blown rebuilding project

[nateodoms'bff]

This team is not as bad as the Jauron/Levy Bills, they are worse. Best case they are even. And I'm not just talking about the record either, I'm talking about the level of talent and glaring holes in keep positions.

I've debated this here for months now and will continue to do so until somebody provides me with tangible evidence and statistical data that shows me Buddy Nix has truly upgraded the level of talent on the roster compared to his predecessors.

Until then it's just another myth and the same thing as saying we are only a QB away from contending.

Statistically, Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Trent Edwards.

Statistically, Kelvin Sheppard is better than Marcus Buggs.

Kraig Urbik, Cordy Glenn, Chad Rinehart, Eric Pears, all statistically better than Duke Preston, Demetrius Bell, Langston Walker, Brad Butler.

Steve Johnson, better than any receiver this team has had since Eric Moulds.

Mario Williams, better than Ryan Denney.

Marcel Dareus, statistcally better than John McCargo.

CJ Spiller, statistically better than Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, A-Train.

Do I need to continue?

[WilliamsWreckingCrew]

Statistically, Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Trent Edwards.

Statistically, Kelvin Sheppard is better than Marcus Buggs.

Kraig Urbik, Cordy Glenn, Chad Rinehart, Eric Pears, all statistically better than Duke Preston, Demetrius Bell, Langston Walker, Brad Butler.

Steve Johnson, better than any receiver this team has had since Eric Moulds.

Mario Williams, better than Ryan Denney.

CJ Spiller, statistically better than Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, A-Train.

Do I need to continue?

How about some more valid comparisons:

Losman/Edwards = Fitz. I know some fans love to throw out Fitz's 300 yard games an other meaningless stats, but the fact remains that both Losman and Edwards were able to win 7 games with this team in their best statistical seasons. Keep in mind these were with the same horrible teams some of you claim were light years behind the ones we've seen the last 3 years under Gailey.

Jason Peters >> Glenn. I hate Peters as much as the next Bills fan, but he's one of the best LT in the NFL when healthy. Cordy Glenn has shown promise, but his play dropped off exponentially in the 2nd half of the season which is a major red flag so until he shows otherwise we don't know he's a franchise LT, or even a starting LT.

Lee Evans = Steve Johnson. Pretty much the same player in that both have shown they might only be really good #2 NFL WR's.

Spiller/FJ = Lynch/FJ. I believe Spiller is a rising star, but until he shows he can do it for 16 games he's no better than Lynch, who is one of the leagues best RB's especially since leaving Buffalo.

Mario Williams = Aaron Schobel. Until Williams shows he was worth the $100 million contract, he pretty much had a Schobelesque type of season last year. A few big games sandwiched between a bunch of games in which he was a non factor.

We can go back and forth but at the end of the day Buddy Nix's teams are no better than Jaurons and if you look at the records they are worse which is a fact.

[Otishawk]

I beg to differ, this is year 13 of a full blown rebuilding project.

It never stops and it never goes any where.

[Shaw66]

And this is the root of the problem, Nix should have been fired the day Gailey was any most people around the league agree with this.

And the fact we haven't fired him yet tells me it's OBD's way of sugar coating the situation so they can sell tickets and the same false hope they have the last 13 years. They've already made a point to tell the fanbase that we aren't rebuilding.

Bill - This where you're logic comjpletely fails you. I get it that you think Nix should have been fired; I don't. Regardless of who's right, your logic here is COMPLETELY wrong.

First, how in the world do you know that "most people around the league" think that Nix should have been fired? Nobody says anything bad about anybody else in the NFL, and there certainly aren't twenty or thirty owners and GMs quoted as saying Nix should have been fired. That's just stupid. It isn't true.

But forget that. Let's assume everyone in the league knows that Nix should have been fired. You're last sentence suggests that Brandon knows it, too, but he decided that for public relations reasons he's better off keeping Nix and "sugar coating" the situation. Think about that. Why would anyone do that? First and foremost, everyone understands that the way to succeed financially in the NFL is to win. Everyone knows that, especially the Bills, who have watched season ticket sales suffer and have seen a lot of empty seats in the stadium because they have been losing consistently. So if Brandon believed that Nix was bad at his job, and if Brandon understands that he has to win for the team to succeed financially, why in the world would he keep Nix instead of firing him and elevating the other guy, or firing them both and hiring someone else? That simply defies logic.

Go on step further. Brandon for some inexplicable reason decides that by keeping Nix (even though Nix sucks at his job), the Bills will be better off selling the fans on the idea that the Bills have turned the corner? Can't you see how stupid that suggestion is? It's a whole lot easier to hire a new GM and announce to the world that he's the next Bill Polian. Or even to hire Bill Polian, for that matter. That's a much easier sell to the fans than trying to convince the fans that the man who brought us three really disappointing seasons is the man to lead the Bills to victory.

Look at Gailey and Marrone. Which do you think would be the easier situation: marketing the Bills to the fans and sponsors with Gailey coming back or with Marrone coming in? Marrone, obviously, makes the marketing easier. So why would marketing Nix be easier than marketing an up and comer or a Polian? It wouldn't.

So what you say simply makes no sense.

Again, I get that it's your opinion that Nix should be replaced, and there's a decent argument to be had there. But to suggest that everyone knows he should have been replaced, including Brandon, and that Brandon kept him because he can sell Nix to the fans as some great white hope doesn't make any sense.

[Otishawk]

I don't see it this way. We were a Qb away from making the playoffs last year.

Not even close.

No linebackers, a weak secondary, no run defense, terrible WR corp.

We were probably a QB away from 7-9.

[Buffalo86]

If we are indeed rebuilding again, let us be thankful to have Buddy Nix. That guy is the king of the perpetual rebuild. Maybe he can use our 1st & 2nd to acquire some good depth.

[chandler81]

What is the alternative? The current GM made a mistake in who he picked as HC in Gailey. When he didn't work out they got rid of him and have now brought in a new coaching staff, who will run the team they way they decide is best. Which may mean a rebuilding of sorts. Or they could have kept Chan and hoped things would have improved. Would that have been better?

We have had 13 years of poor picks in coaching staff by our GMs that have prevented the team from being a consistent winner. The teams that win year after year have stability in their front office and their coaches, with a consistent philosophy that allows them to better target draft picks and FAs. We haven't had that since Polian and Levy. Hopefully Marrone and Whaley (because I'm assuming Buddy steps down after the draft) will provide that going into the future.

OK, so if it was all Gailey's fault (and the poor coaches chosen before him), and Marrone is a brilliant coach, then no reason this year's team shouldn't challenge for the playoffs (what with all the great players many on BBMB say Mr. Nix has added). However, if they don't have enough talent, then why is Mr. Nix running this next free agency period and draft? And, how was he allowed imput on the selection of the current coach?

Mr. Gailey needed to go--never should have been brought here--but I'm not on board with another rebuild.

[Shaw66]

How about some more valid comparisons:

Losman/Edwards = Fitz. I know some fans love to throw out Fitz's 300 yard games an other meaningless stats, but the fact remains that both Losman and Edwards were able to win 7 games with this team in their best statistical seasons. Keep in mind these were with the same horrible teams some of you claim were light years behind the ones we've seen the last 3 years under Gailey.

Jason Peters >> Glenn. I hate Peters as much as the next Bills fan, but he's one of the best LT in the NFL when healthy. Cordy Glenn has shown promise, but his play dropped off exponentially in the 2nd half of the season which is a major red flag so until he shows otherwise we don't know he's a franchise LT, or even a starting LT.

Lee Evans = Steve Johnson. Pretty much the same player in that both have shown they might only be really good #2 NFL WR's.

Spiller/FJ = Lynch/FJ. I believe Spiller is a rising star, but until he shows he can do it for 16 games he's no better than Lynch, who is one of the leagues best RB's especially since leaving Buffalo.

Mario Williams = Aaron Schobel. Until Williams shows he was worth the $100 million contract, he pretty much had a Schobelesque type of season last year. A few big games sandwiched between a bunch of games in which he was a non factor.

We can go back and forth but at the end of the day Buddy Nix's teams are no better than Jaurons and if you look at the records they are worse which is a fact.

Sorry.

You're right about Losman/Edwards=Fitz statistically, but Losman was a disaster running the team, and Edwards was, for lack of a better word, a coward. I'm not a Fitz fan, but he's always been a better choice than the other too.

Peters IS more talented than Glenn. But Peters has no heart, and he certainly has had his injury problems. But the original comparison was oline to oline, and there's no comparison there. Current oline is better.

I loved Lee, but please. Stevie, for all his faults, makes plays, shows some heart. Evans was more talented, but Lee never produced like Stevie.

Williams-Schobel? Come on. Williams has 15 fewer sacks in 2 fewere seasons, and he's an outstanding run stopper. How much he's paid isn't relevant - Williams is the better player, without question.

Spiller-Jackson - Spiller already is the choice. Would the Bills have been better off keeping Lynch, managing him, and drafting someone else at 8 that year? Yes. But the other problem with Lynch was that he didn't fit the offense that Chan was going to run. (Offense failed, of course, but you have to go with your plan.)

I don't see how you win an argument claiming the talent hasn't improved since Nix took over. Results haven't, for sure, but the talent has. Oline is better, tight end is better, receiving a little worse, QB the same, RB better or the same, Dline better, linebackers the same, maybe a little weaker, DBs better. Clearly.

[Otishawk]

Statistically, Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than Trent Edwards.

Statistically, Kelvin Sheppard is better than Marcus Buggs.

Kraig Urbik, Cordy Glenn, Chad Rinehart, Eric Pears, all statistically better than Duke Preston, Demetrius Bell, Langston Walker, Brad Butler.

Steve Johnson, better than any receiver this team has had since Eric Moulds.

Mario Williams, better than Ryan Denney.

Marcel Dareus, statistcally better than John McCargo.

CJ Spiller, statistically better than Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, A-Train.

Do I need to continue?

Yes you need to continue.

Your statistics, of which no make no mention of; and are more than likely meaningless, tell about 10% of the story.

Your comparisons are also a bit foolish. Dareus and McCargo?? Williams and Denneny? Sheppard and Buggs??

Johnson is no better than as Evans. (IMO he is no where near as good) Spiller not as good as Jackson.

This is a very, very poor roster and the original poster has a very valid point.

The team has regressed since Nix took over.

You want the only statistic that matters................4-12, 6-10, 6-10.

Buddy's mistake in the draft and FA are killing this team.

[nateodoms'bff]

How about some more valid comparisons:

Losman/Edwards = Fitz. I know some fans love to throw out Fitz's 300 yard games an other meaningless stats, but the fact remains that both Losman and Edwards were able to win 7 games with this team in their best statistical seasons. Keep in mind these were with the same horrible teams some of you claim were light years behind the ones we've seen the last 3 years under Gailey.

Jason Peters >> Glenn. I hate Peters as much as the next Bills fan, but he's one of the best LT in the NFL when healthy. Cordy Glenn has shown promise, but his play dropped off exponentially in the 2nd half of the season which is a major red flag so until he shows otherwise we don't know he's a franchise LT, or even a starting LT.

Lee Evans = Steve Johnson. Pretty much the same player in that both have shown they might only be really good #2 NFL WR's.

Spiller/FJ = Lynch/FJ. I believe Spiller is a rising star, but until he shows he can do it for 16 games he's no better than Lynch, who is one of the leagues best RB's especially since leaving Buffalo.

Mario Williams = Aaron Schobel. Until Williams shows he was worth the $100 million contract, he pretty much had a Schobelesque type of season last year. A few big games sandwiched between a bunch of games in which he was a non factor.

We can go back and forth but at the end of the day Buddy Nix's teams are no better than Jaurons and if you look at the records they are worse which is a fact.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

*cough cough cough*

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH

You are seriously the worst. The absolute worst.

You asked for players that are STATISTICALLY better than Jaurons, and I provided that. Still, not good enough for you.

Lee Evans the same as Steve Johnson. I mean seriously? The Cordy Glenn stuff is priceless too.

Comparing Aaron Schobel to Mario Williams is awesome. I mean, talk about reaching for an argument.

I cant believe I indulged this thread...

[indybillsfan]

OK, so if it was all Gailey's fault (and the poor coaches chosen before him), and Marrone is a brilliant coach, then no reason this year's team shouldn't challenge for the playoffs (what with all the great players many on BBMB say Mr. Nix has added). However, if they don't have enough talent, then why is Mr. Nix running this next free agency period and draft? And, how was he allowed imput on the selection of the current coach?

Mr. Gailey needed to go--never should have been brought here--but I'm not on board with another rebuild.

Well, if you're not on board with a new coach trying to build a team then I don't know what to tell you. Marrone and I think Whaley will now have their opportunity to build a winner. If you can't be on board for that then I guess you need to re-evaluate your support of the team.

[BUFF BANDIT]

I don't see it this way. We were a Qb away from making the playoffs last year.

keep telling yourself that and you will be the 1st one on here at the end of november crying because the bills have already been eliminated. this team is years from being competitive !

[Shaw66]

keep telling yourself that and you will be the 1st one on here at the end of november crying because the bills have already been eliminated. this team is years from being competitive !

If Marrone and Pettine are any good, this team is no more than two years from being competitive. One year to learn the systems and pick up some more talent.

With good coaching, you don't need much more than Williams, Williams, Dareus on your defensive line to be competitive. That's a huge head start.

[THE SLAMMER]

I am always amazed what people will do for attention on this board. Nothing really ever changes....

Yes, yes, FULL BLOWN REBUILDING PROJECT.... OMG !!!!!

Billy.jpg

[chandler81]

Well, if you're not on board with a new coach trying to build a team then I don't know what to tell you. Marrone and I think Whaley will now have their opportunity to build a winner. If you can't be on board for that then I guess you need to re-evaluate your support of the team.

Do not question my or anyone else's support for this team. We can talk players, front office and game strategy all you want, but do not question my loyality to this team.

[WilliamsWreckingCrew]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

*cough cough cough*

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH

You are seriously the worst. The absolute worst.

You asked for players that are STATISTICALLY better than Jaurons, and I provided that. Still, not good enough for you.

Lee Evans the same as Steve Johnson. I mean seriously? The Cordy Glenn stuff is priceless too.

Comparing Aaron Schobel to Mario Williams is awesome. I mean, talk about reaching for an argument.

I cant believe I indulged this thread...

Typical response I expected.

Seriously go look research the statistics of all the players I compared and get back to me specifically Lynch compared to Spiller.

Who went to the playoffs last year? What player had more rushing yards? What player was a unanimous probowl selection vs an alternate?

The problem with fans like you is you compare 'potential' to actual results. And that's all you have when comparing Nix's draft picks and FA signings to the previous regimes.

You can keep living in a fantasy world where 4-12, 6-10 and 6-10 are considered an improvement though.

[WilliamsWreckingCrew]

Bill - This where you're logic comjpletely fails you. I get it that you think Nix should have been fired; I don't. Regardless of who's right, your logic here is COMPLETELY wrong.

First, how in the world do you know that "most people around the league" think that Nix should have been fired? Nobody says anything bad about anybody else in the NFL, and there certainly aren't twenty or thirty owners and GMs quoted as saying Nix should have been fired. That's just stupid. It isn't true.

But forget that. Let's assume everyone in the league knows that Nix should have been fired. You're last sentence suggests that Brandon knows it, too, but he decided that for public relations reasons he's better off keeping Nix and "sugar coating" the situation. Think about that. Why would anyone do that? First and foremost, everyone understands that the way to succeed financially in the NFL is to win. Everyone knows that, especially the Bills, who have watched season ticket sales suffer and have seen a lot of empty seats in the stadium because they have been losing consistently. So if Brandon believed that Nix was bad at his job, and if Brandon understands that he has to win for the team to succeed financially, why in the world would he keep Nix instead of firing him and elevating the other guy, or firing them both and hiring someone else? That simply defies logic.

Go on step further. Brandon for some inexplicable reason decides that by keeping Nix (even though Nix sucks at his job), the Bills will be better off selling the fans on the idea that the Bills have turned the corner? Can't you see how stupid that suggestion is? It's a whole lot easier to hire a new GM and announce to the world that he's the next Bill Polian. Or even to hire Bill Polian, for that matter. That's a much easier sell to the fans than trying to convince the fans that the man who brought us three really disappointing seasons is the man to lead the Bills to victory.

Look at Gailey and Marrone. Which do you think would be the easier situation: marketing the Bills to the fans and sponsors with Gailey coming back or with Marrone coming in? Marrone, obviously, makes the marketing easier. So why would marketing Nix be easier than marketing an up and comer or a Polian? It wouldn't.

So what you say simply makes no sense.

Again, I get that it's your opinion that Nix should be replaced, and there's a decent argument to be had there. But to suggest that everyone knows he should have been replaced, including Brandon, and that Brandon kept him because he can sell Nix to the fans as some great white hope doesn't make any sense.

Let me clarify, when I say 'most around the league', I was referring to the talking heads/media. Not necessarily other owners/GM's.

In fact I believe it was Jay Glazer that first broke the story about Gailey being fired, and he also say he expected Nix to be canned as well.

But getting back to the owners.....I've asked this before, but if Nix is such a great GM why didn't 31 other owners recognize this? Especially considering we didn't even hire Nix to be our GM until he was over 70 years old. Why did it take the worst team in the league to recognize such a great personel evaluator that 31 other teams passed on?

Also my point with Brandon is who cares what he thinks or says. His main job is to sell tickets, and by keeping Nix it sends the subliminal message that we aren't in a full blown rebuilding phase. Instead will keep the same GM who swung and miss on his first HC and also swung and miss on his first choice of 'franchise QB'.

I'm glad we tried something different this time and hired Marrone, but until he proves he can coach at the NFL level and take the team with the longest playoff drought in the league back to the playoffs he's nothing more than another Gailey or Jauron with a fresh coat of paint. And remember at least those two had previous NFL success.

[MarshawnLynch#23]

27.2 ppg against?

31st against the run?

0-6 against Playoff teams?

2-4 in division?


Really?

As bad as the defense was. They were a few minutes away from being a 9-7 team in 2012. They should've beaten the Rams, Titans and @ Patriots. They also blew a 21-7 lead at home, vs a Patriots team, that had lost 2 games in a row coming in. They could've been a 9-10 win team with better coaching. The head coach was lost. The DC took no chances. They were still throwing late in games with the lead. Terrible game management.

[WilliamsWreckingCrew]

As bad as the defense was. They were a few minutes away from being a 9-7 team in 2012. They should've beaten the Rams, Titans and @ Patriots. They also blew a 21-7 lead at home, vs a Patriots team, that had lost 2 games in a row coming in. They could've been a 9-10 win team with better coaching. The head coach was lost. The DC took no chances. They were still throwing late in games with the lead. Terrible game management.

And by the same token let's examine our 6 wins last year:

KC - the worst team in the league picking #1 overall in next months draft

@ CLE - another bad team, who actually got hot in the 2nd half of the season and played at a much higher level then when we beat them in week 3

@ AZ - team similar to the 2008/2011 Bills that got off to a hot start only to be exposed and collapse down the stretch. And if not for Byrd's INT's to seal the game we probably should have lost this one in overtime.

MIA - played our best defensive game of the season in primetime and still barely won

JAC - big win over another horrendous team picking #2 overall in next months draft

NYJ - all we had to do is show up, which we did against an equally bad team that gave up weeks before we played them.

Bottom line.....if you really believe this team was a few plays away from 9-10 wins and the playoffs last year I have some beachfront property to sell you in Arizona as they say.

[LINDA_D]

I don't see it this way. We were a Qb away from making the playoffs last year.

Actually, we were a defense from maybe contending for the playoffs last year. Whine all you like about QBs, but unless something is done about the defense, the Bills are going to struggle to win even half their games.